Lively Debate

 I am not a fan of small talk at dinner, I'd prefer cordial quiet or a listen to a lively debate. This is ironic since I am not good at debate, take an awfully long time to form my views and dislike any form of confrontation. Nevertheless, a dinner where I can set the cat among the pigeons and sit back to listen is my favourite sort of evening entertainment - as long as everyone remains super polite, understanding and curious about the the view which is opposite to the one which they hold. There is nothing I like least, to be honest, than someone 'sounding off a view' without recourse to curiosity and questions to understand the counter.

And, so it comes to a question I would very much like discussed over dinner without animosity. A discussion I believe worthy of all time and all places and one which has rattled around my brain since adolescence.

To the film that sparked the journey: The Mission (1986). If you have not seen it, I watched it as a confirmation candidate and never looked back.

The line: Gabriel: "If might is right, then love has no place in this world. It may be so, it may be so. But, I don't have the strength to live in a world like that, Rodrigo"

In those words, even as a fourteen year old, I heard everything I stand for articulated. Love must, of course, conquer all and Christians should live every day and every interaction to reflect that.

As time went by I grew to understand how controversial that view truly is. How easy it is to say that 'might' would be right in this circumstance or that - everything from needing to wrestle a child into a car seat to countries defending against aggressors have challenged Gabriel and myself in this conviction. And it is good to be challenged, even if my resistance is as strong as iron. 

So, who would I ask to dinner? I have made pairs - matched in culture and challenge, who I would like to see have a cordial and informed exchange of views. None, I think, met in real life - although it is likely they knew of each other. And, I am glad you said 'famous people' and not 'saints' because I have included a rogue.

St Thomas Garnet (1575 - 1608), declared a saint in 1970, nephew of Henry Garnet who was executed to his perceived knowledge of the Gunpowder plot. Thomas Garnet was one of the forty martyrs of England and Wales, executed at Tyburn. He was educated abroad from the age of 17, finally transferring to seminary in Valladolid in 1595.  He has many connections to Norfolk; his guide and confessor, Father William Baldwin, was imprisoned in the Bridewell - and, when Thomas Garnet was finally arrested he gave his name, at first, as Thomas Rokewood, in order to attach himself to the residents of Coldham Hall, Norfolk, for whom he was chaplain and whom had already been implicated in the Gunpowder Plot.

Thomas' own description of returning to England in turbulent times was much more passive: he ' wandered from place to place, to reduce souls which went astray". 

To St Thomas Garnet I add, as a conversation partner, Guy Fawkes (1570-1606); a man that has never been regarded as a saint! Growing up, my Da did not like us going to Guy Fawkes celebrations - there are better reasons to set off fireworks he would say. Guy Fawkes, the villain - a man educated in York, a convert to Catholicism, full of zeal in violent times. He signed up to fight for Catholic Spain against the Protestant Dutch Reformers in the Low Countries. And, well we all know what he plotted here in England - this was a man who thought 'might is right'. I'd like to hear his views now.

I have two more pairs.

Oscar Romero (1917 - 1980), canonized in 2018, and Rutilio Grande (1928 - 1977), Blessed,  were friends in real life. They knew each other. They also had tense conversations that were rooted in their differing approaches to the church's role in politics in the context 1970's Chile under the Pinochet regime. Grande championed grass roots activism for the poor, resisted the government openly and campaigned for wholesale political change. Meanwhile, Romero was more traditionalist and, initially at least, had a conservative sense of the institutional order. They had a close friendship which was torn apart when Rutilio Grande was assassinated by forces aligned to the government. The tragedy of his death changed Romero's view of the balance between faith and social activism; of course, his new stance eventually led to his own assassination. Where was the place of 'love' in the world in the mind of these two? What would the guest, Jesus, have to say on  the matter?

Finally, Fulton Sheen (1895 - 1979), Venerable and due to be canonized in September 2026, and Dorothy Day (1897 - 1980), Servant of God. These two were living across a great period of change in the Catholic Church. You can see from the dates the transition between Vatican I and Vatican II - they would have both had to come to terms with, understood and accepted, whole ideas, teachings and 'ways of doing things' that were new. There is no recorded meeting of these two American greats, but Dorothy Day did quote Fulton Sheen: "A Saint is one who has learned to spiritualize and sacramentalize and ennoble everything in the world and make of it a prayer." And, that is certainly what Dorothy Day tried to do with her life, working tirelessly with the most vulnerable and founding the Catholic Worker Movement. Meanwhile, Fulton Sheen's remarkable  ministry touched millions of people internationally. This was something Day appreciated and recounted, commenting that she knew, personally, of a sailor, named Mac, who returned to the faith at St Patrick's Cathedral, New York, after hearing Fulton Sheen preach.

Now - I have invited too many to the party - but what is a party without good company, meaningful talk and an insight into the views of others - some of which we may even disagree with?

To meet your Andrew Klaven, I might add Mike Schmitz and then we would have contemporary voices in the mix too!

If I could invite more, I'd haul over the 1st Century saints - we never get to hear enough of them, their lives or how on earth they came to the watery wilderness of East Anglia. And, on this precious feast of St James the Great - I'd like to talk him too, most particularly about the relationship he had with his brother and how it was they eventually came to see eye to eye in their apostolic ministry. Those sons of thunder a worth a second look.

Pictures to follow -I am away with the fam!